DISCLAIMER: This is information to just the best of our knowledge; it is not professional or legal advice; and it is always possible we made a mistake in it. It is our best attempt to be helpful in this area and it is not perfect, not a guarantee, and we may have overlooked something.

Basics / Intro

For Buying

When buying think of it like this, you're paying money to a stranger over the internet, how can you guarantee they will do as promised?

Despite the internet, buying safe online is much more similar to buying safe in person than you may think. For a real world analogy, it's safer to buy from a reputable store than in an alley from a guy who opens his trenchcoat and has all his goods hanging from his inside pockets. It's the same deal. Same thing of buying from a store with a return policy versus going to someone's house and buying their as-is used item.

Buying safe falls into these two parts:

(1) The seller needs to be interested in having you as a return customer and you as a return customer, not return customers in general.

And even if the seller is a guy in an alley selling some goods in a shady manner, if the guy is in the same spot every single day, then he's still more likely to care if someone returns saying the item is no good as opposed to buying a used car because usually when you buy a used car you aren't going to buy another one again for years whereas a seller in an alley with goods in his trenchcoat would probably hoping you'll come back soon to buy more.

Now if you buy from an online seller because their prices are vastly lower than anyone else, the seller won't care if you come back because the virtue of their prices alone will keep people coming. Whereas if you buy from an online seller who has been selling for a long time (so they're not a fly by night seller) and the seller's prices aren't the lowest, then as long as the seller isn't an idiot, they'll want people happy and coming back as it's a bunch of work to get new customers.
On Random Plaza, one way to check if the seller has made an investment in at least wanting return business is if they have hundreds of listings up because that takes a bunch of work.

Now let's say you buy from a seller that's satisfied the condition of wanting you as a return customer, and then you have a problem. Now it's important that you don't trash their desire to have you as a repeat customer or you've lost a good motivation of the seller to help. Firstly, don't go trying to force a refund through your payment method. Sellers view that as a buyer pulling a scam instead of a legitimate request because 99% of the times when a buyer does that, the buyer is scamming. This is a very last resort measure when the seller is blatantly ripping you off. If the seller thinks you've already done a credit card chargeback, well banks usually hide these from sellers for several months and so a seller can't find out if one will come except for waiting, therefore if a seller thinks you've already done this, they'll likely just try to cut their losses instead of helping. Secondly, don't go trashing the seller's reputation once you hit a problem as leaving feedback about a seller is done after everything about the transaction is all done.


(2) You are able to affect the seller's reputation in a way the seller cares.

As for the used car analogy, now even though they won't expect your return business, they might care about word of mouth advertising. Of course when buying a used car from an individual who put up a classified ad, then you get neither. Word of mouth advertising isn't that much and while an honest business would care, a dishonest business could live without it and just use normal advertising to substitute.

That is why there are various online review systems. These have accuracy problems because none of the websites running them can verify if the person writing the review is telling the truth. If the website has any kind of numbered scoring system, then it's even worse because one person rating someone at the lowest often has their rating count for about a thousand people who give it good reviews.

Random Plaza has these features for accuracy of its feedback system. Firstly, no numerical scores, as feedback is most accurate as an aggregate of the bulk of a user's comments. Not all feedback is honest and this method ignores the extremes, which is what robust statistics does, and having no scoring system encourages people to be honest as you can criticize without it ruining their feedback. Secondly, there's a separation of paid vs. unpaid feedback with the amount a seller pays at a flat rate so a seller can't sell a lot of cheap items to pad their feedback. Thirdly, Random Plaza's feedback isn't imported some another website with an inferior feedback system.

Reputation still is anecdotal evidence. The sway of your effect on a seller's reputation depends largely upon what effect you can have to the seller's reputation, so it's not as important as a seller's desire for your return business.

If all of that fails, then it's basically more about if you can track the seller down in person to call the police or sue them, both of which may not do anything or get your money back. Of course it's very rare for a problem to be the seller outright ripping you off. Outright rippoffs usually happen with very expensive items and sometimes what happens is a seller builds their feedback up selling cheap item and then suddenly sells high priced items, takes the money, and vanishes. When buyers buy a cheap item and it doesn't arrive, usually it's a shipping problem instead. For expensive items you either need to do pickup, both parties need to have established trust beforehand, or you need to do escrow (see the escrow section below). When sellers sell a cheap item, it is extremely rare for it to be an outright ripoff. Sellers just don't do that for cheap items as selling lots of cheap items is about return business. Now people selling cheap items may sell cheap quality items such as scratched, refurbished, knockoffs (some people don't mind them or can't tell--oh and knockoffs are illegal), packed poorly when shipped, the seller's camera took a poor digital photo that didn't capture the photo right, tobacco smoke stink on the item, et cetra, but they're hoping the buyer doesn't mind. Internet shoppers typically go for the rock bottom lowest price and a seller can't keep a business going if they're losing money on every item, so they have to cut costs. Now if you buy a cheap item and it doesn't come it's usually a shipping problem with the mailman losing the package, the mailman stealing some of the items from the package, the seller's dropshipper causing them problems, or the seller making a mistake with shipping. In rare cases, a person selling a cheap item will have some emergency (e.g. hospital, prison, computer failure, etc.) and not ship or ship a month late.

Now some people advocate to solve all problems is for buyers to simply use a payment method that allows them to force refunds. These companies that do this kind of thing (online payment systems and credit cards) have no way of actually knowing if the seller delivered the goods or not and so 99% of the people getting their money back through these methods are scammers. For a seller to actually prove they shipped the goods, they'd need to take a two video cameras per box they ship (to prove there was no video editing) and have it on commercial box and open it up, have the camera inspect every part of the item (taking several minutes) and then videotape the packing of the item and the cameras stay on the package as the seller drives it to the post office and then hands it over. Then the seller needs to ship registered mail with restricted signature and hope the post office properly scans that. Even so, there's various professional magicians/illusionists who could figure a way to pull off a switch of goods even with the cameras on them. Of course, most sellers will just do a tracking number, rarely require signature (because most buyers won't sign for packages), that's all they can practically do so then when a buyer does a dispute, then this tiny bit of evidence is all the go on. Basically what it all entails is that the companies that allow buyers to dispute things have no idea if the advertised merchandise is delivered at all and the same methods that allow honest sellers to protect themselves from scammer buyers will also allow scammer sellers to scam honest buyers. The times when these things actually do give honest buyers their money back is when the seller is honest but something bad happened like they ended up in the hospital for a month and couldn't ship. All other times, the payment methods that allow buyers to force refunds give buyers a false sense of security so they still get scammed, and it ends up getting honest sellers scammed like crazy, resulting in all the money loss to sellers causing the price of goods to rise so they have to raise prices and thus both honest buyers and honest sellers are paying for all the scammers buyers. And these methods often just force a return policy where if the buyer wants to return an item they ship it back at their expense and then they get refund minus shipping and a restocking fee (especially if the item is opened and thus not resellable). These forced refunds are used by scammer buyers who break items (e.g. buy speakers, paint speakers pinks, don't like their paint job, and force a refund) or buy new items and switch them for used items (in some electronics they'll even open them up and switch some chip out and send the rest back). But this process is also used by scammer sellers who ship garbage (or some times you order from some company over the phone, but one product, and then the company starts sending you lots more products and charging your credit card for them and all the products they billed you for are junk the company charged you 20x the worth of) and then make the buyer ship it back at their own expensive and then not refund all the buyer's money.

For Selling

Can you imagine being an employee at a company where long after you've received payment from your employer, that your payment from them would suddenly get reversed a year after you've been paid? And on top of it, you get a large "chargeback fee" that is never refunded. And then after that, law enforcement won't even do anything about it? And even in the rare instance where you convince the employer's bank to undo the reversal, the huge chargeback fee never gets refunded and the employer can just keep on doing chargebacks for the same thing over and over? And that you'd have to travel miles or even across the world and spend enough money buy several new luxury cars in order to sue them, often with the additional expense of tracking them down if they used false information, and on top of it, you might not even win the suit?

This is what it's like for anyone who makes their living selling online.

Random Plaza is one of the few community marketplace websites that doesn't force sellers to use payment methods where they get scammed all the time.

Escrow

If you're really concerned about safety, the way to go is escrow. Just make sure to check the escrow company is licensed as there's fake escrow companies out there are scams. Make sure that the licensing agency you look it up with is a legit agency, too, and that what you're looking it up on is the actual website or whatever of the licensing agency. Here's a video called "Hitler gets scammed on eBay" about what happens when you get hit by a fake escrow company.

Escrow is usually used for purchases of a house. For purchases of vehicles, it's sometimes used, but usually instead what happens is both parties meet in person and sign papers so there's easy suing. See the section "Suing the other party and law enforcement".

Now for doing stuff over the internet, the companies are "internet escrow". Escrow is no good unless the item is expensive. For instance, escrow.com, which is one of the most highly reputable internet escrow sites in the USA, has a small percentage fee, but a minimum $25. So if you're doing escrow for something under $100, the fee is way too much.

Escrow.com does escrow for about everything except real estate. They advertise domain names and physical goods on their website, but they can do escrow for other things like virtual items in games and escrow for freelance computer programming. They hold the money in escrow but they don't inspect the goods. If the buyer disputes the receipt or quality of goods they must then do arbitration with the seller. Arbitration is done by an outside company and costs even more money. If the buyer doesnt participate in the arbitration, then their money is released the seller. Now for this arbitration, it can be tough or easy depending on the item or service.

Easy:

• Domain names are pretty easy to prove who ends up owning it.
• With selling ebooks and digital items that a seller can copy over and over, then the seller can just keep sending the buyer a copy of the same thing until they get it.
• Freelance programming and similar work would have some written specifics of what needs to be done. Then if the contract employee can produce the code, they can prove that they did the work. If there's a disagreement over uality, then it all goes to the written specifics.

Hard:

• Disputes over the quality of physical goods are difficult. In these, the seller would have to go excessive with video cameras as described in the end of section "Basics / Intro -- For Buying", but even so, a buyer could claim some kind of hidden defect, especially if the product was pre-sealed from the manufacturer and a lot of times, products do have manufacturer's defects in them and the buyer has to return them. A buyer would need a videotape from getting the package to opening and inspecting it to prove their case too or a seller could claim the buyer got the item the seller sent and then took some other object and claimed the seller sent that instead.
• Another hard one is virtual items for games. What if the seller sells 1000 gold in a game and only delivers 100 gold? What if a the seller delivers 1000 gold and the buyer claims they delivered nothing at all? Well, to solve this requires something prewritten contract of the buyer and seller of what's transferred, when, and their account names. Then they go into a private came, point video cameras at their screen the whole time for proof, and do the transaction on video. One party with enough technical expertise could still simply have their computer record everything and then do a lot of editing work and have some kind of faked thing their computer was playing and video tape that. So yeah, difficult.
• If the virtual item as an actual account, it's even harder because it's hard to prove who has the account and you only need a password to get it.

If someone knows an escrow site that handles delivery of virtual items, please contact Random Plaza (click help then click contact or post in the forums) so Random Plaza can put it up.

Pay or ship first?

The first and most important thing is that sellers should never ship until the buyer pays. Why? There are a lot of buyers who end up not paying and sellers have no way to get their item back if they ship first. On the other hand, buyers who are supposed to pay first, usually have a myriad of ways to get their money back whether the refund is warranted and most of those ways allow the buyer to keep their item for free, too.

So buyers, this is why the seller requires payment first. This is the standard and it's extremely rare that sellers ship first as when they do, they usually get ripped off. The seller is just doing normal practice for doing this.

Changing the terms of the sale

It is important to be cautious when a trading partner tries to change the terms of the sale after you win. Sometimes a seller accepts a buyer's offer but then the buyer says they'll only pay by an payment online payment service or an escrow service that the seller did not say they accepted in the listing and additionally the seller is not comfortable. Another possibility is if the seller gives payment methods they accept and then suddenly they won't accept those and say they'll only take some different method.

Advance fee fraud

Google search this: Nigerian astronaut
And then read the example scam and that'll get you familiar with most of the stuff. But by the way advanced fee fraud also happens to job seekers by fake employers that make job seekers pay money in some fees to start a job or a sales opportunity only to find that there was no real job and it was a scam.

If you live with others and order something embarrassing

If with live with others and order something embarrassing, personal, etc. then be sure to remind people it is a federal offense to open other people's mail so this does not happen. Or rent a PO Box.

Suing the other party and law enforcement

Suing the other party is a last resort after everything else including law enforcement, who usually won't care. Lawsuits are usually out of the question if you need to sue someone in another country.

If it's a small claims case, then usually it's in the venue of the defendant because small claims court tends to have a law saying that. When it's not small claims, there's still a venue fight. Going to a distant location for a court case often costs more than the money amount disputed in the case itself.

A good example on venue is Attaway v. Omega, No. 11A01-0712-CV-608 (Ind. Ct. App. Mar. 13, 2009). The buyer buys a car from a seller on eBay. The buyer gets the car and then does credit card fraud (technical term "chargeback"). Normally when this happens the seller is out of luck, however the seller made the buyer come to their home area to pick the car up. So the courts ruled that because the buyer actually went to the seller's own area to pick the item up, the case would be tried where the seller lives.

Whoever spends the most on lawyers usually wins. Cases are of course at the whim of judges and jury, but if a case is appealed, it can of course end up being judged by someone with a different viewpoint and totally changes the case.

A lot of times someone goes into small claims and wins. Then the loser appeals and the loser introduces new evidence in the appeal and the appeal is reversed because of the new evidence. Unless it's a completely new trial ("trial de novo"), this generally is not allowed but most people don't realize it. For example, in 2009, Aaron Greenspan of Think Computer Corporation sued Google Adsense for closing his account because they would not give a reason. He won in small claims. Then Google came and appealed it. In their appeal trial, Adsense should have been arguing that the small claims judge made a mistake in the law, but instead they introduced tons of new evidence and gave the reason for his ban, which google didn't give in small claims. And because of the new evidence, the man then lost the case from the appeal.

Other issues are that:
♦ The scammer may have given you false information so you can't track their real identity down.
♦ The scammer may not use bank accounts and make their income under the table so you can't seize any assets or garnish them.


Basically, it's better not to get scammed.

What about meeting in person and trading in cash?

This is the sort of thing that some people recommend for classified ad sites. This is done in cases where the seller has no reputation, you can't see if they're selling more than one item, and they probably are only selling one item one the site. This might be worth it for some heavy item that the buyer is picking up in person, but in many cases it's not worth it.

Two of the benefits of shopping online are low prices and getting items rare enough that they can't be obtained locally. If you're picking an item up, then your time and travel expenses may negate any savings.

Local pickups are not even necessarily something guaranteed to mean a buyer will be satisfied with the item. If buyers always would be, then stores would not get so many returns. Plus there's a scam where people meet in person exchange a gift card for cash and the gift card is good at the time of the exchange but then the seller is able to electronically drain the card remotely so the buyer later finds the card somehow changed to empty. Plus, there are many people who have had auto mechanics they thought were rip-offs that make up fake repairs and then damaged the car in the process so it'll break down shortly afterward and the customer will have to come back. Then there are dentists. With only a small amount of web searching, you can find many stories from people who have gone to one dentist and that dentist will lie and say the person has a cavity or other work and then they check with another dentist and it turns out that person is fine. In most cases, people will get their teeth permanently mutilated and destroyed so a dishonest dentist can make a profit, then they later find out from an honest dentist that the procedures were unneeded. Sometimes people will have been with a good dentist for a long time and they move and get a new one and the new claims to find ten cavities and all kinds of other problems and then they go back to the old dentist who finds nothing was wrong but their spouse had already had their teeth drilled and destroyed by the new dentist. Or a patient goes to a new dentist who says they have a cavity and schedule a drilling for six months in advance and later the patient goes back to their old dentist who finds that they would have had a cavity if they let it go for six months, but just cleaning the tooth with a standard dental cleaning would prevent it. Dentists, auto mechanics, and online sellers have honest and dishonest types. When dentists replace people's teeth or parts of their teeth with artificial parts, the artificial parts will break and fall out, sometimes quickly due to shoddy work and sometimes longer. Some people even have to get all their teeth pulled because a dentist did such poor work. Based on internet reports, there's a much larger percentage of dishonest dentists than there is dishonest online sellers, however many buyers online are all squeamish about online sellers and become deadbeat non-payers, often agreeing to pay many sellers for the same item and only buying from one, when at the same time if a dentist says they want to permanently mutilate and destroy the same buyer's teeth, the buyer never even gets a second opinion when they should get multiple opinions to be safe as destruction of one's teeth, unlike problems with online shopping, is permanent.

If you pick it up in person, be sure to open the box and inspect it first as a seller could sell a brick or broken item in a shrinkwrapped brand new electronics box.

In short, people may stress over an online purchase when most are safe and if they're only spending a small amount of money, then the potential harm is small. Whereas, people almost never get a second opinion from another dentist when their first one says they want to mutilate their teeth.

However, if you're making a purchase over $500 USD and you've not dealt with the seller before, it's really much better to go and do the exchange in person and get a receipt. It's not so much about the seller being legit, as nearly all online sellers are, but it's about things like if the product has a manufacturer's defect and it's expensive or heavy, then it's a real pain to exchange it. If you buy some expensive electronic item and breaks down a year later and it's still under warranty, then it's better to have some place local that could repair it for free or exchange it than you having to ship it thousands of miles to the manufacturer. Oh and if you're buying a house online, well that's just obvious you want to see it beforehand.

And if it's long distance, if you get the other person to come to your area for the transaction, then you can sue them in your venue; see the section "Suing the other party and law enforcement".

Point-to-point cash transfers

Point-to-point cash transfers (e.g. Moneygram, Western Union money transfer) are where a person goes to a place like a Western Union office and then orders a money transfer to someone else. They set the other party's name and address and then the person transferring the money gets a transfer number. The person transferring the money gives that number to the person they transferred money to. The recipient of the money then goes to a location that participates in it, often some cash advance place or a Western Union office, and the recipient stands in line, gives the transfer number, and their driver's license. The recipient then collects the cash. This is not the same as a bank wire transfer.

Aside from the driving to a location, the standing in line, filling out forms, and that it costs too much for a small payment, this system is no good for exchanging money between strangers. The unfixed flaw in this system is that not all locations in the world require people to provide identification so that someone can say they are John Smith in New York when they're really Bakare Tunde in Nigeria.

Mailing payment

Firstly, if you mail cash and don't use registered mail, a lot of times postal workers steal cash from envelopes. Even if a postal worker doesn't steal the cash, they can still misdeliver the mail. Registered mail is expensive. Sending cash is just unsafe and you should not do it, and you likely can't prove how much cash you sent anyway. If a seller is asking for cash, then you need to meet them in person to do the deal. Cash is basically something only to pay for an item you pick up in person. For sellers, it's sometimes possible money can be counterfeit but it's rare and there are methods to tell counterfeit money which you can do a web search for. Never make a check or money order out blank with no recipient name because that's like sending cash in the mail.

For mailing checks and money orders, buyers do have a risk that the seller would take their money and not ship, but the funds are traceable. If the seller deposited the funds or even if they went to a counter to cash them, then you have evidence, and there have been cases of buyers filing police reports with the seller's local police department to make them ship. If the seller is what was talked about previously on this page of relying on return customers and the amount is not large, then this should not be a problem. Another thing is if a seller has a reputation. If you're buying an inexpensive item, the seller would make a lot more profit if you returned as a customer than if they stole $5 from you and did not ship.

There have been some issues of account hijackings on some auction sites, but this should never happen on Random Plaza due to the second password system and at present it won't happen because the site is not popular enough for hijackers to bother. Account hijackings are generally when the seller was selling $20 goods and suddenly is selling $1500 goods and wants the payment sent to Nigeria.

If you sent a money order, you need to keep the receipt. If the post office loses your mail, then it's a problem both for you losing the mail and for the seller who may be falsely blamed of stealing the money order.

Sellers often worry that personal checks will bounce, when that is extremely rare. All a seller has to due is wait 10 days before shipping after cashing the check. "Friendly fraud" by buyers receiving goods and then reversing a credit card payment is constant and they'll occasionally do it with eCheck payments, but bounced checks are extremely rare and when it happens, it's generally unintentional because unlike with electronic payment fraud bounced checks cost buyers money as long as they're not doing it with a bank account that's been closed and even still. Plus, whereas sellers have pretty much no recourse for credit card and eCheck fraud because law enforcement does not care, check bouncing has better laws and a personal intentionally bouncing checks often will wind up in jail, unless the personal check comes from a foreign country in which case you shouldn't be taking personal checks from a foreign country anyway as they may take a month to bounce and most bank accounts won't allow them to be deposited, although they are still safer for sellers than credit card payments.

The risk of fake money orders is even less. This usually only happens when it's a money order from a foreign country or the sender of the money order overpays the seller and has the seller send some of the overpayment back--if both of those happen, then it's a clear scam. Money orders from the United States and Canadian post office are designed with many counter-fraud measures that should solve this issue and even then, a seller can go to the US or Canadian post office to exchange these directly for cash if the post office has enough cash in their drawer. There are other types of money orders that people can go to the counters of the stores that sell them to cash them as well. In addition, many types of money orders have phone numbers one can call to verify the money order is legitimate.

The same we in this section for money orders also holds true for cashier's checks and traveler's checks.

Credit card

If this is TL;DR, then the basic thing is: taking credit card payments = getting scammed. Pure and simple.

Credit card payment is the most convenient and widely used payment method on the internet. However it is to sellers what point-to-point cash transfers is for buyers. If the credit card company offers any protection to buyers, then the buyer can use the protection to steal free items from sellers. The difference is that law enforcement cares a lot more about when a seller scams than a buyer. Buyers who can be traced back to their real-life identity almost always get away when they scam sellers online whereas sellers who can be traced back to their real-life identity usually get a visit from the police when they scam a buyer online.

For buyers: A downside to credit cards for buyers is that due to heavy fraud, when making an internet purchase buyers have to enter a card code and, depending on the merchant, have their zip code and street number match the card. If a buyer gets this wrong and it is their credit card, then an authorization hold gets on their card for the amount that would have been charged. Authorization holds last for a few days to two weeks depending on your bank's computer system. Sellers and your bank cannot make these go away faster than they naturally do. Another downside for buyers is that if you use a credit card that takes money from your bank account instead of the money being IOU, then a large unauthorized transaction will mean your bank balance suddenly goes low and you can get hit with $30 insufficient funds fees from your bank.

Most prepaid gift cards offer no protection and most debit cards (credit cards that take money from your bank account) offer crap protection. Normal credit cards are always 100% safe for buyers and 100% unsafe for sellers. Even if a buyer takes their credit card number, expiration date, and card code and tries to give it out to everyone across the internet, they can just report the transactions unauthorized and the buyer does not have to pay a cent. It is always the sellers who pay for credit card fraud whether it's the seller's fault or not. The most a buyer deals with is waiting one to two weeks for a replacement card, which is only an issue if they only have one.

In point-to-point cash transfers, the buyer is at the seller's mercy if the seller decides to ship or not. With credit card payment, the seller is at the buyer's mercy on whether the buyer wants to get their money bac and keep the item. However, it's much worse than merely being scammed because the buyer will then stick the seller with expensive chargeback fees on top of it. If a buyer purchases from a seller in multiple credit card transactions, the seller gets multiple chargeback fees if the buyer is a scammer. Even if a seller disputes a chargeback and wins, the cardholder can go and re-dispute it again and again and again for ever and ever and ever nonstop, giving the seller additional chargeback fees each time, even if it was a $1 charge on the cardholder's card.

According to Visa and MasterCard rules, buyers have up to six months to do a chargeback when the seller is in the same country as them and one year when the seller is in a different country from them. However, some banks limit this to a shorter time period, such as 60 days. American Express often will give cardholders at least a year. Sometimes, particularly with travel-related purchases, there is no time limit and it can be a hundred years. Tracking numbers of shipments typically stop being viewable online in six to twelve months. Buyers, make sure to check your credit card terms as some card only allow you to dispute unauthorized transactions and others allow you to dispute receipt of goods and quality of goods. Some card require a certain dollar amount for disputes. Additionally, buyers watch out of your credit card has a "foreign transaction charge" as depending on the bank, the card may use this to charge you a large fee when buying on the internet from merchants outside your country. So it's good to hunt around.

Credit cards have an array of sortings for disputes such as transaction not authorized, item not received, item not as described, recurring billing transaction the cardholder cancelled, etc. When the cardholder files a dispute with their credit card company, if they say they have dealt with the merchant before, then they have a harder chance of winning. If they say the item is not as described, sometimes their credit card company makes them ship it back and other times not. If they say they didn't receive it, the credit card company will require it to be delivered to the cardholder and signed by them. Delivery confirmation means nothing for defending against chargebacks. Having it signed by a family member and not the actual cardholder means nothing. Of course merchants who do not meet the cardholder face to face have no way to know the cardholder's real name so making shipping more expensive to include restricted delivery will not help. Though more likely when a seller ships things that are required to be signed, buyers aren't available when the delivery comes and so must stand in line to pick an item up or if it's a private carrier they'll have to drive for hours to a service station if it's possible. Some buyers also have work shifts where they can't stand in line somewhere during 9am to 5pm. So a lot of signature confirmed items get returned unclaimed to sellers and credit card companies will never reverse a chargeback because a buyer refused to sign for it no matter what. Credit card companies also want an AVS (address verification system) match of the zip code and street number. Even with signature confirmation and AVS, credit card companies often will just not care and will ignore all evidence by the seller. Of course, the favorite way of scammer buyers is to claim the transaction is not authorized.

It used to be credit cardholders had to sign documents to do a dispute, and then it became they only had to call on the phone, and now it's gone to where they can just do disputes by clicking a few buttons on the internet. Disputes by clicking some buttons on the internet used to be the kind of abuse only found in online payment systems but now credit card companies are letting cardholders who aren't even able to lie over the phone do fraudulent chargebacks.

When a cardholder says they do not recognize the merchant, the banks never reimburse the cardholder with their own money unless the charge is maybe $1 and the banks consider it not worth it to do the paperwork of a dispute. Instead the banks take it from the merchant and on top of that, the merchant's merchant account provider charges them a huge chargeback fee ranging from $10-$75 that is not refundable even if they win the chargeback. (This fee is in addition to the regular processing fees the merchant pays both for processing the transaction itself and if the cardholder has a rewards card, banks don't pay cardholders rewards out of their pockets even if the cardholder is paying a fee for their card to be a rewards card, but rather banks charge merchants extra whenever a cardholder pays with a rewards card.) As a result of fraud, credit card transactions have evolved to have many security features: card code (aka. names like CVV); address verification (AVS); 3D secure (aka. names like Verified by Visa); charging the cardholder a small initial amount, attaching a code to the description so the cardholder then goes and verifies the code to show they are the cardholder; getting a copy of the cardholder's drivers license and fingerprints; etc. In addition, a number of credit card companies allow cardholders to create free temporary virtual card numbers for each transaction where they are not using the card in person. What this has done is made actual cases almost nonexistent where a credit card is used without permission through a merchant the cardholder has not deal with previously, and when it does happen, it almost always is family member of the cardholder who does it. Banks still process chargebacks where cardholders claim this but only one in a million of these are real and the rest are called "friendly fraud", where the cardholder purchases and item and falsely tells their bank something to get the item for free and cardholders use "not authorized" most of the time because that makes it the hardest for the merchant to overcome.

When a cardholder files a chargeback for unauthorized and they never dealt with a merchant before, the bank always, every time, will sit on it for about two months after all the paperwork is in before alerting the merchant's processing company who then tells the merchant. The merchant processor then mails the merchant chargeback documents and then the merchant has only a few days to get the documents in, though quite often the documents arrive late. (We speak of sellers with real merchant accounts and not third party payment processors.) At this point, all the ways that the merchant used to keep out fraud mean nothing to the cardholder's bank. Card code; 3D secure; proving the cardholder; charging the cardholder a small initial amount, attaching a code to the description so the cardholder then goes and verifies the code to show they are the cardholder; getting a copy of the cardholder's drivers license and fingerprints--of all these, the bank just does not care.

Merchants have no way to verify anything about the card with the bank. Even if the merchant gets the full credit card number (which is hard to do when by Federal law all terminals both online and offline must encrypt the number and only show the last four digits for the merchant to see), the banks are useless, horrible, and rude. A merchant would call the bank's number. The bank will not tell the merchant anything, even if there is a chargeback investigation. The best a merchant can do is to explain a situation and leave their cell phone number if there is a chargeback. Banks will only then say that they noted the merchant's phone number "on the account" and not say if they left the number connected to anything or just random and stray, unconnected to even the merchant's name, and will only state this after reading a prewritten gibberish unrelated statement over and over for 30 minutes while the merchant grills them to say something that makes sense. To add insult to injury, banks are extremely rude about it. Of course, they never call the merchant regardless.

For internet transactions, the bank claims it requires an AVS match of both the street and zip code matching what is registered the customer's card (even if it's out of date and the customer moved) and delivery to that matching address with that customer's signature and nobody else's signature.

• For AVS, those with real merchant accounts with usually use authorize.net so a merchant can print out the address and the AVS match, and they could create a second login to authorize.net with a link to the transaction ID for the bank to verify. But of course the banks won't accept the printout as proof and they either don't have internet access or falsely claim it so they will never log into authorize.net to view it anyway. In addition, all the bank employees, regardless of their actual intelligence, will act brainless and lazy, so they never type the URL correctly or even type the transaction ID in correctly. But generally, they never even read a merchant's evidence in the first place.
• Then for a signature requirement, delivery confirmation does not count. If a merchant has online tracking and sends a tracking number, well going online or phoning the post office is too much work for banks handling chargebacks. If a merchant has a physical document such as "return receipt" with the cardholder's actual signature, they should hold onto it because merchant processors will not send it in but fax a copy of it. Even if the merchant scans it, prints it out blown up to a full page of both sides, and then mails it to their merchant processor to eliminate any readability issues, the bank still will not even bother to look it; they still will deny the chargeback reversal.

The "friendly fraud" where the customer claims the charge is unauthorized is the worst, and in our experience, even if a merchant all has these: a full address verification match of street and zip code; cardholder signature, full fingerprints, retinal scan, and DNA sample with a video tape of it all happening; full scans of both sides of the credit card, cardholder's driver's license, cardholder's passport; an actual bank statement along with a signed, notarized confession from the cardholder that they did make the purchase and it was satisfactory; a video taped statement from the cardholder saying they made a legitimate transaction; and a letter written by a lawyer that disputes the chargeback; validation from 3D secure. Even with all of that evidence, the bank still will not reverse the chargeback. Sure, the merchant could win a lawsuit, but not win a chargeback. Instead, the bank will just send this same one-sentence form letter showing they never read the merchant's evidence, and it is always this form letter: "We are unable to remedy this chargeback without a signed ; magnetically swiped/manually imprinted sales draft or proof of delivery to the cardholder's billing address ; a positive AVS match of X or Y."

If a seller requires a full AVS match of street and zip code, then most buyers will fail this, usually the street, and this drastically reduces the amount of customers who pay the seller and deters a large percentage who do pay from returning. If a seller requires signature on delivery then most buyers will hate that. If the seller merely requires the zip code to match, the buyer will tell the seller after paying to ship across the country instead and if the buyer bought it using a community marketplace website with scored feedback, the buyer who just defrauded the seller will give the seller the lowest scores, lie on their feedback, and get away with it with the comment never being removed.

If you sell by credit card and later refund them, you should only refund it back to the same credit card they paid you with to prevent a double-refund, a chargeback fee, and a lot of wasted time fighting the chargeback if the buyer does a chargeback.

In certain locations, depending on the law, it is either illegal or against Visa, MasterCard, etc. policy to do a surcharge for accepting credit card payments. In other locations, it is completely allowed to surcharge and no one can prevent the merchant from surcharging for credit card transactions. Sometimes businesses call this surcharge a handling fee.

While credit card payments if done by a bank offering the buyer protection, are completely safe for the buyer, they are completely unsafe for the seller. A seller taking a credit card payment is similar in safety to a seller to receive a check that's post-dated six months in advance (12 months foreign), however the check post-dated a year in advance is marginally safer than credit card payment because it's more work to change bank accounts as it means closing and account and opening a new one and the new one might not have the zero minimum balance that the last one had and on top of that one has to redo all their automatic deposits and deductions from the account whereas with a credit card one keeps the same features on the account by doing a "friendly fraud", which 99.99999% of all chargebacks are. In addition, if the check bounces, the owner of the bank account has to pay about $30, whereas with credit cards the cardholder wouldn't have to pay that and instead the merchant has to pay it.

Credit card companies/banks also work extremely hard and do their best to encourage credit card fraud, particularly "friendly fraud". Here's how:
1) When there's a chargeback, they often keep it secret for two months before they go and steal the money from merchants. This ensures the fraud buyer can make multiple purchases and the merchant only finds out about it long after the goods have been shipped.
2) A seller can have all the evidence like the cardholder making the purchase on videotape and the cardholder had to give their fingerprints and it all matches the credit card owner, but the cardholder's bank just refuses to reverse the chargeback when a cardholder says they didn't make the purchase.
3) They require all deliveries signed not by the cardholder's spouse or family member but the cardholder and even when this happens, they still won't reverse the chargeback when they cardholder says they didn't get the package or make the purchase.
4) Banks leave their AVS system generally broken so most cards can't get a street number plus zip match that the bank says it requires before it will reverse a charge back. Of course even with a full match, the banks will always ignore the evidence.
5) To anyone who has not had a merchant account this may seem far-fetched, but to those who have had one can recognize this as one of the most common chargebacks they get: Banks allow cardholders to do things such as make 10 purchases from a merchant, then file chargebacks for unauthorized and get a replacement card. Next month, the cardholder makes 10 more purchases from the same merchant and files chargebacks for unauthorized again. Then a month after that the same thing happens again. A while later, the merchant gets the chargebacks from two months ago. Then when the merchant submits evidence that the AVS matched the cardholder's street and zip and they shipped to their home, the cardholder's bank denies every single request to reverse the chargeback.

Here's how both banks and merchant account providers profit on chargebacks:
1) The money banks charge back, they steal from the merchant.
2) If the cardholder didn't pay in one transaction, the merchant account provider steals chargeback fees for each payment.
3) Banks never research chargebacks so they don't spend money on that. Merchant account providers also don't research chargebacks, fight them, or anything. All banks and merchant account providers ever do is send papers back and forth which costs them next to nothing. The ones who charge the chargeback fees are merchant account providers who do nothing to earn the fees and they're all pure profit. It is the merchant that does all the work researching and fighting the chargeback and when banks don't actually look at any evidence until the merchant disputes the chargeback whereupon banks only do a fleeting glance at what the merchant sends in.
4) Even when someone successfully gets a chargeback reversed, it's impossible for them to get their chargeback fee refunded even if the charge is a few cents and the chargeback fee is hundreds of times that size.

There is a very popular online payment service that is part of a popular auction site. The payment service is well-known for several problems of one constantly freezing accounts, then ransoming it for personal information including one's social security number; and two, its own internal dispute system is rife with fraud, usually from the buyer and occasionally from sellers finding a way to cheat it. However, it does have one advantage. When one sells using a merchant account on the auction site that owns the payment system, buyers constantly commit credit card fraud by ordering items, then claiming they didn't make the purchase, and then banks don't tell merchants for two months to they can shop all they want from the merchant. After two months, feedback is done and the seller can't do an unpaid dispute. The online payment service merely tells the seller who got chargeback information in the mail that the online payment service only accepts forwarded email documents of a chargeback and not things from paper documents. Well many buyers on that site look for sellers with merchant accounts specifically to do that to them. The one advantage to their online payment service and actually the only advantage to it at all (hey we aren't naming it so we can be honest about it!) is that if a buyer tries to pull that scam through the online payment service, then the buyer gets a big ban from the online payment service and from the auction site, too. That's all nice, but that online payment system and the auction site don't run many automated queries looking for banned buyers who snuck back, only sellers, which likely is because it's very resource intensive. Anyway, there have been several attempts at creating global websites with databases of whenever a buyer has done a fraudulent chargeback but they're rarely used, not consolidated and not verifiable if the complaints on the buyers are legitimate.

The only benefit to merchants of accepting credit cards is convenience. While credit card payments and bank account eCheck ACH payments both will in essence take several days to settle, the credit card system is better in that it puts an authorization hold on the funds whereas eCheck payments must wait until it settles.

There's a website called www.ic3.gov that you can report being defrauded by a buyer for credit card fraud. You fill out long forms, give your personal information, and give all the proof you want. They will always ignore all your reports. That website is a waste of time. In the USA, the FBI says they won't investigate financial crimes under $10,000 and the Secret Service says it must be at least $100,000. Filing a mail fraud form doesn't work because the post office says they only will tally notes on this. Sellers can file a mail fraud form with the post office, but they'll only take action if they've got a massive amount complaints about the same person. Sellers can contact the buyer's local police department and police often won't even take a report. Police will then say it's a civil matter and not do anything at all. Collection agencies do not work because you do not have the scammer's social security number and even if you did, they can just dispute the mark on their credit rating.

eCheck

eChecks (ACH) are different from wire transfers. In wire transfers, the bank account holder has to call up their bank and personally initiate the transfer and pay a big fee. For eChecks, someone else puts the money in or takes the money out. eChecks use a system called ACH, which is the same service that some utility companies use to directly withdraw money from your bank account when you sign up to pay your bills that way. Unlike credit card transactions that firstly do an authorization hold on the funds before anything else, eChecks must wait to settle which is about three business days for the same country and weeks for foreign countries. Most companies offering eCheck services for merchants only work for the USA.

eChecks only allow buyers to do one type of dispute, "not authorized", and of course many scammer buyers do this type of dispute after receiving the goods. Despite the fact that the customers had to verify the bank account was theirs beforehand by verifying deposits into the accounts, banks just love to support scammer buyers. Unlike credit cards that allow six months to a year, eCheck buyers have two months to dispute per NACHA regulations. NACHA also do not provide a protocol for a merchant to counter a dispute and most providers of eCheck services will just say the merchant can do nothing. The provider Noca claims that they will relay any proof that the item purchased or services were consumed.

For merchants taking eChecks, one has to take it through a special service or an online payment service. The fees for them vary from provider to provider with Noca having some of the lowest fees and least types of fees.

Merchant Accounts vs. Online Payment Systems

Now you might take PayPal or some other online payment system and see it charging you 2.9% plus 30 cents. Well you obviously think that's bad and you might get a merchant account. Merchant accounts claim they charge you less, but that's a lie. A merchant account says it charges around 1.9% for in person credit card transactions and 2.2% for internet. But the real truth is that they call this the "discount rate" and they pull a scam where every internet transaction you have actually gets you charged the "non-discount rate" purely for being over the internet and this is 5%, and they often charge this in addition to the "discount rate" so it's really about 7.5%. The "discount rate" for American Express is around 3.5% so the "non-discount rate" for that would be higher still. On top of this, sellers are charged 50 cents for each transaction and about 30 cents for each decline. Merchant accounts also will charge you setup fees and lock you into contracts, which these companies do purely because they know once people join with them, they will want to quit. Merchant accounts also charge monthly or annual fees just because they can get away with it. On top of this, a lot of merchant accounts charge lots of fictional fees that could be named anything that they tack onto transactions just to gouge. In total, merchant accounts with their hidden fees end up charging you about 15%. Merchant accounts also do not refund you these fees if you refund a customer, but instead they charge them right back again giving you double the fees.

And then if you get a chargeback (where a person makes a person with their own card and then does credit card fraud to steal the money back through their back), you get a chargeback fee. PayPal and merchant accounts charge you chargeback fees purely as a way to steal extra money. PayPal only charges $10 whereas merchant accounts charge $15-$75. The fee is 100% pure profit and they do not do any work related to chargebacks and they try to encourage chargebacks as much as they can so they can profit off this fee. Some online payment systems charge near what PayPal does and some may even charge no fee. Yes while online payment system do steal this fee, too, it tends to at least be less.

The only advantage for credit card processing of having a merchant account over an online payment system is that places like PayPal love to freeze the funds n your account, ransom it for your personal information that they have no business asking for, and then never give the funds back and merely promising to. Online payment systems are also much better for eChecks than the typical merchant account offerings.

Another thing is that there are several large payment systems that are either checkout systems (with "checkout" in their name) or are popular online payment systems. Whenever they arbitrarily ban you or freeze your account, they then give every single buyer who has ever paid you for the history of the account the item for free long after you've shipped, and then these companies will try to drain your bank account for the money and what they can't get, they send collection agencies after you and ruin your credit rating. To add insult to injury, the companies may demand tracking numbers if they don't already have them, but of course after getting them, they already refunded all the buyers so it's too late. One of these companies when it unfairly banned people, it would just make their login not work so the person didn't know what was going on.

Many online payment systems also like to set up some mock escrow system like holding your funds until the buyer says they are satisfied or letting buyers dispute through it instead of credit card companies. The problem is these are not real escrow systems and so they don't check about anything and it's pretty random what happens. If the buyer loses the dispute, they can then just go to their credit card company and do double jeopardy of a credit card chargeback. For instance, they purchase speakers from a seller, they paint them, then they don't like their paint job so they force a refund through PayPal, then PayPal denies their dispute so they tell their credit card company that they never received their goods and get to keep the item and their money. This kind of thing happens several times every second. To be good, an online payment system needs to guarantee its funds and also have a functional dispute system that is even compatible with services and non-physical goods. Various electronic gold places like pecunix (this site is good because it doesn't charge storage fees unless its competitors and storage fees are just a huge scam) and "revolution money exchange" basically let the funds be actually secure, but don't allow a dispute system so they're unbalanced.

Basically merchant accounts give you bad deals and so do online payment systems. Online payment systems are cheaper because merchants accounts scam/lie about the real cost of their fees, but online payment systems like to hold your funds and never release them while demanding more and more personal information that they have no business asking.


Here's something just for funny to read and not useful...

The Plan:

1. March 2008, Australian news show Today Tonight (channel 7) aired a report about how PayPal was unsafe for both buyers and sellers. YouTube link (posted on youtube by EarWaxRudd on March 25, 2008 titled "Ebay and Paypal - Today Tonight report")
2. The report possibly convinced numerous people not to use PayPal, and after that, in April 2008 eBay announced that PayPal was required as the only payment system for all listings in Australia. They also seemed to get rid of their adult category, as PayPal doesn't take payments for adult items.
3. After national outrage, the government investigated. Australian Payments Clearing Association found that fraud on PayPal is 20 times higher than credit card fraud and credit card fraud is already very high in fraud itself. Quote from apcmag.com (Dan Warne 12 June 2008, 5:01 PM, titled, "eBay fails in bid to force users to use PayPal") : "APCA notes that eBay provides no evidence to suggest that the relative frequency of online fraud for PayPal online transactions is any less than found in general online transactions. According to 2007 APCA statistics, card fraud in Australia is 0.0167% of transactions. APCA contrasts this with a statement made by Daniel Feiler, media spokesperson for eBay, quoted in the on-line publication 'The Sheet' on 15 April 2008 saying that the incidence of fraud through PayPal now stands at 0.30% of all transactions. APCA also notes that PayPal's buyer protection is not reducing fraud but instead is reallocating the cost of fraud from buyers to sellers."
4. eBay vice president Simon Smith said, "We're not allowing people to offer unsafe choices, just like in this democracy you can't go out and buy heroin on the streets." Quote from apcmag.com (Angus Kidman 06 May 2008, 12:22 AM, titled "eBay boss: "not offering PayPal is like buying heroin"")
5. ???
6. Profit

Bank wire transfers

Bank wire transfers are different from point-to-point cash transfers. Bank wire transfers go from one bank account to the other and due to them costing quite a bit, people only use them for expensive items. Bank wire transfers, if done to a bank in the same country, are easily traced to find out who took your money if it's a scammer, though you'd have to contact the police for help generally.

Bank wire transfers are generally for automobiles, real estate, shady business deals you see in movies/television, and other large purchases. Generally for bank wire transfers, the buyer and sellers should meet in person, show IDs, sign a contract, and have the contract notarized.

Beware of a giving a buyer that you don't personally know your bank account number because some people can use it to drain your bank account.

Shipping foreign without tracking

Merchants selling to foreign buyers have a number of problems to worry about. First, it's that for reasons discussed earlier buyers can more easily scam them if the buyer can reverse their payment. Second, it's that tracking is extremely expensive. Many buyers already are stingy about shipping and using one of the few methods to be able to track a shipment so it's viewable online, costs several times the product, generally making shipping end up at $50-$100 or more, though it varies. There are cheaper methods that give a return receipt when delivered, though these don't always give the return receipt and even if they do, it doesn't come back until about a month after delivery. If you ship something from late November through December, it will delay your shipment delayed even more. There are also various countries with customs problems where customs will steal the packages almost all the time and other countries that are third world and will just lose a large percentage of their most. Although tracking is expensive, third party insurance on shipments to foreign countries can be purchases for a dollar or two.

Well it might sound nice, just cheaply insure it and the buyer gets their money back. However, there are many sadistic buyers out there who won't comply with insurance, which requires a 45-day wait and the buyer to sign a form. Often after two weeks of it not arriving when it's December they will become abusive, refuse to listen to anything you say, and try to extort the item for free using threats of harm to your feedback, threats of them performing payment fraud, and threats of calling the police. They will even do this if they also sell items, too. All these things will make one wonder if they're really just psychotic all the time or if they're just trying to scam you.

Some people even advise against taking foreign orders at all.

For sellers combining shipping

There is a common scam buyers do. For example, a buyer buys four coats. The seller ships them all. The buyer claims that they only received three. The seller has many choices here, but let's say they tell the buyer to ship them back with all packing material for a refund. The buyer ships it back and the box weighs two pounds less. The weight difference shows the buyer tried to pull a scam. So the seller refunds them for the three coats and writes in feedback what the buyer did. That was just an example and normally sellers just are baffled and will refund the buyer or ship a fifth coat.

Some sellers try to defend themselves from this by never combining shipping, using a digital video camera to videotape part of the packing process including the buyer's name and then labeling each clip digitally with the buyer's name and address, or simply insuring the package so if one item is missing the can have the buyer file an insurance claim for shortage.

In rare cases, sellers will make mistakes and leave out an item.

Returns

Returns are a pain for physical stores, but they're so much worse for when items are shipped because of the cost and time of shipping, because sellers cannot inspect the item before the seller ships it back, and because it is time-consuming for buyers. Walmart and Target are physical stores that have 90 day return policies, which are some of the best around. They could do this for many reasons and whatever they are, one main one probably is to increase sales.

If you sell online, it is inevitable that some item will have a defect and you will need to take a return. As for returns, there are different kinds of reasons for returns. One important point is that the longer you give the buyer on a return policy, the more likely they will want to return it. They may get buyer's remorse, break it, or whatever.

If the item was shipped to the buyer with a defect, the seller should refund or replace. If the item was damaged in shipping, then whatever shipping insurance policies can deal with that or sometimes sellers self insure and just replace it.

However, a lot of times returns are done by scammers. Things like:
a) Buyer damages the item after using it and does a return.
b) Buyer purchases software, copies it, and then forces a refund.
c) Buyer claims to be very angry about the product, convinces the seller to take it back, but then instead of shipping the item back, they fill the package full of old newspapers so it's the same weight and then ships that to the seller with tracking.
d) Buyer sneakily returns a used item or older model for a new item.

A note to buyers: If you leave the seller bad feedback and then tell them to do a return, you've got a good chance that the seller will say no as you trashed their feedback impulsively and they don't want you as a customer anymore. What you're supposed to do is leave it after the return is done. If you've left them good feedback already, then they may still take it back as if the return is for a valid reason and the seller has a large inventory for sale as they'd want you as a customer again.

Fraudulent returns also hurts buyers. A certain electronic store offers a liberal return policy with no restocking fees and some people purchase electronic items as a free rental for an event and then return them, abusing this policy. Then some innocent buyer buys an item someone has used beforehand. So let's say if the buyer paid in some easily-buyer-reversible payment method, the buyer could force a return and then if the item was expensive, the seller wouldn't want to throw it out, but they'd get it professionally fixed up and ready for sale again, ending up with some innocent buyer getting a second-hand good.

Paying taxes

When you sell online you shouldn't skip out on your taxes as you won't just get a fine, but often go to jail where all your possessions are lost or auctioned off, you lose your job history, etc. and just waste several years of your life with the only thing you get out of it is laid a bunch of times and probably hepatitis from the unclean living conditions.

As for declaring income when you get money through an online payment service, you shouldn't consider it income until you can actually get that money out. Sometimes you might not be able to get it out.

If selling brand name items

A lot of small time sellers are sole proprietors with not even an LLC registered, often because they do not sell that much. If you are like that and sell even one brand name item, watch out. Generally to sell online you have to get items extremely cheap or sell at a huge loss and a lot of times suppliers send sellers inferior goods and these goods sit in a seller's inventory and sell gradually so if the seller learns it is bad, too much time has passed to demand a refund. There are a lot of people going around and actually buying goods to see if they are counterfeit and then these rich corporations sue people for about 10,000 times what the item sold for. The rich corporations are guaranteed to get what they want in court because they can afford the rich lawyers and the ordinary person who found even an LLC license fee too expensive is never going to afford any lawyers. These counterfeit-hunters often don't give warnings or try to go after the suppliers, but instead go after the sellers who are not super-experts on brands.

Some protection methods are:
1) Always use a PO Box as your return address. They sue the return address.
2) Make an LLC so the rich corporations can't steal your house.

Another thing to watch out for is scammer buyers who will buy $3000 legit brand name item, falsely claim it's fake to the company they made payment for, and then return a $3 fake of the brand, forcing their money back so they're able to get away with theft and fraud.

♦ itemnotasdescribed.com (comedy)
♦ Five Retarded Get-Rich Quick Scams (People Still Fall For)

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